Dear all,
Raili raised some important points. My take on these are:
1) we have to get feedback from all courses, many of them are now missing
I agree with this completely, so many feedbacks did not get to the staff this year
2) there are a lot of criticism about the order of courses Biomolecules and Biokemian menetelmät I, which suggest that Biokemian menetelmät I should be the first, and Biomolecules after that.
I disagree with this very strongly. Methods I cannot be before Biomolecules for the simple reason that in Biomolecules students find out what is the structure of DNA, what is a protein, how does transcription, translation etc occur. Without these basic facts most of Methods I is meaningless - what can you say about SDS-PAGE or agarose-gel or PCR when you don't know anything about the molecules? Methods I was never the 1st course, it was the 1st practical course.
In an ideal world there would be some overlap between Biomolecules and Methods I i.e. they would run in part in parallel. This is effectively impossible due to timetabling constraints. The first year students do so much chemistry that there is not time for 2 biochemistry courses in parallel in the autumn term. Also we have to consider timetabling for biology and chemistry students who do these two courses. I have the autumn timetable in front of me to see what we can do to rearrange Biomolecules (it needs to be more compact), but it is difficult to do even this. Unless we bring Chemistry or Cell Biology (for 1st years) teaching in house we cannot run Biomolecules and Methods I in parallel. We cannot expand the teaching load at the moment, much as I would like to bring Cell Biology in house.
We should also contextualise what is meant by a "lot of critisism" about the order of the two courses......
Another major timetabling discussion is Microbiology. This is clearly not the equivalent of the other 2nd year courses, but there is no room for it in the 1st year and the other second year courses must go in the order Molecular Bioogy I - Protein Chemistry I / English for Biochemists II - Methods II. Combined with the teaching from other departments this leaves the only place for Microbiology to be where it is now. The better solution in my view for microbiology would be to have a course taught specifically for our students and not shaired with Process Engineeering, whose students know much less biochemistry are this point. Again we cannot expand the teaching load at the moment.
the third major timetabling issue is the lack of practical classes in the 3rd year. As discussed at feedback day in part this arose due to no practicals on the Cell Communication courses this year. However the major reason is that it was planned this way so that students could have the maximum flexibility for choosing their optional courses from other departments. With few practical classes and the large amount of self study in the BSc thesis we thought that students could have the flexibility to really do what they really wanted to do. We could balance the number of practicals between the years, but this would mean a serious loss of timetable flexibility in the 3rd year. Please could 3rd year students respon on this issue.
3) Finns should teach in Finnish, not in English and
4) English teching is OK, if it is supportive, not pressing too much
I disagree with this for three reasons:
i) English is the working language of Science. If you cannot communicate effectively in English you cannot succeed in science. Sad but true. In the old system the students had nothing in English until the 3rd year, by which point they had forgotten all of their high school English. The standard of English of our new system students is far better than are old system students and while teh 1st year is tougher I think it really helps them in subsequent years of the degree and of their future careers. We need courses taught in English from the 1st year and even with the number of non-Finnish staff we do not have enough native English speaking staff - in fact we have 1 in total, me.
ii) All of the text books and most of the material available on the web are in English. This makes learning the basics in English easier than learning them in Finnish; you don't understand something the lecturer said you have a huge number of choices to find out the information in whatever format suits you best. Students come in not knowing the biochemistry words, but they don't know them in Finnish either. Another comment to contextualise allm of this I have had comments from Finnish students that it is difficult to write exams on certain finnish-taught courses in Finnish because all the material available is in English and hence in the exam they are having to translate from English to Finnish in the exam.
iii) If Finns teach in English then they set a good example to the Finnish students - look it is possible to talk in English about biochemistry even if you are not a native English speaker. If only foreigners talk in English who is the example for Finnish students?
Again to contextualise this, the complaints from students came on Biomolecules about Tuomo and essentially (in the written forms that came past me) came from 2 students who were complaining mainly about 1 word he mispronounced. Finally on biomolecules we also have foreign students and so it has to be taught in English.
The benefits to the students far outweigh the costs.
What we do need is the English I course we originally designed and were promised and not the course we currently have that a large part of it is irrevelant to Biochemistry. Yet again I will have a meeting with Kielikeskus representatives about this.
5) There are a lot of things we can try, in order to prevent students flow to Medical campus
-we should give concrete examples of working jobs to biochemists (as done earlier!), research is one choise but not the only one
-we have to describe research projects going on in the department, and give the decription every year
-tell to the student that science is fun, and tell them that we (most of us) are living normal life, having children, having other activities etc, not being workaholics!
Again to contextulalise this. This loss of students to the medical campus is virtually entirely in the 1st year. So we would need to do all of this effort to keep them in the first year at which point most of the research we do would be meaningless to the students. We already have presentations about research in Oulu to the 3rd year students (much earlier than we used to have them) and we have already agreed that these should be expanded next year to try to ensure all groups in the department present. We also have other features as part of that course e.g. public understanding of science etc that cover some of the other points. Unless I am missing something we present more things earlier on than ever before. An old system student said on the feedback day that they did not really understand what biochemistry was about until the Pro Gradu project. I hope that all of our new system students know this far earlier on.
We should also acknowledge that if somebody wants to go to medical school, they will go to medical school (if they get in - good luck to everyone taking the exams in a couple of weeks) no matter what we say about biochemistry.
The problem is (according to multiple students comments each year for the last 3 years) our new first year is much better training to get into medical school than our old first year - so paradoxically by getting better we lose more students.
Where we can try to cut down the loses is elsewhere, but again we should encourage not discourage 3rd years students to do MSc courses elsewhere if they better fit their future career choices, and at least several of the other losses from the system have not been losses to other departments/universities but a loss from the university to the "real world".
What we need to do is ADVERTISE in schools. too many 1st years tell me that they did not know what biochemistry was when they applied. The BSc thesis on public understanding of science includes options to go to a school but nobody did it this year. Some staff already do a lot towards public understanding of science, others do less and as an example just look how difficult it was for Sakari to get volunteers to help with science day.
On the final point science is fun, but according to nearly everyone who is asked to succeed in academic research it is hard work and something else has to be sacrificed. One recent article said that to suceed in modern science you could have only one of the following: a family, a major hobby, or going out and socializing regularly with friends. But to be good at ANYTHING you have to work at it, to sacrifice other things. It is also harder now than in the past to succeed in academic science (see attached recent article to get really depressed). We should not lie to our students, but nor should we treat it as something depressing. Why are we here doing the jobs we are doing if we could earn at least twice as much for far less work with the skills we have? There must be something? There is - the passion and the fun of finding things out, understanding how things work and knowing the impact that this can have on society through, in the case of biochemistry graduates who do research, understanding disease states and finding novel treatments or improvements to existing treatments.
Anyway it is 5 o'clock so I am off home to have fun with my children until they good to bed.
Best wishes,
Lloyd
Hi all,
Since the weather is now really great (it is not snowing during the day time anymore) I think it is time to start practicing our football skills before supporting our favorite team during the European cup. I think we could play on Wednesdays at 18h30 if the time is suitable for most of us. The place would be in front of the church in Linnanmaa. In order to have interesting game I would appreciate if you could inform me every week before Wednesday 12h whether you are coming or not. this way i could end an email informing how many people are willing to play. Of course friends are very welcome as well.
Best Wishes
Francois
Hi all,
I think according to the current weather it is better to start the season next week. (and anyway i got no reply from potential players)
Have a nice evening
Francois
Hi all,
Last week the weather was not as good as expected...But maybe tomorrow we can have a little game. Place: Linnanmaa in front of the church Time: 18h30 If you are planing come, please could you inform me via email be Wednesday 12h, so then i can send an email to inform you how many people are coming. Friends are very welcome.
Have a nice day
Francois
Hi all,
Due to the lack of players, only 2 beside me said that they will come, we do not have a football game today.
So hopefully next week more people will join so we could start the season.
Have a nice evening
Francois
PS: if the day and the time are not suitable, i am of course open to changes in order to have more players.
Hi All,
I got one one potential player suggesting to play another day than Wednesday. So how about Tuesday, same time same place?
Please could you let me know whether it is suitable and, inform me by Tuesday 12h if you are coming to play.
Have a nice day
BR
Francois
Hello,
Up to now, we are 5 potential players...It is about half of what would be sufficient to have a nice game... So i do not think it is appropriate to have a game today.
Have a nice afternoon
Francois
Hi All,
Today again we will see whether we can have a game or not...
Please reply to this email if you are planing to come.
Have a nice day
Francois
Hi all,
This week again we do not have enough players to have a game...
Have a nice evening
Francois
Dear Lloyd and all interested,
I feel that I have to comment on the language issue, but certainly hope not to start a flame war.
- Finns should teach in Finnish, not in English and
- English teching is OK, if it is supportive, not pressing too much
I disagree with this for three reasons:
i) English is the working language of Science. If you cannot communicate effectively in English you cannot succeed in science. Sad but true. In the old system the students had nothing in English until the 3rd year, by which point they had forgotten all of their high school English. The standard of English of our new system students is far better than are old system students and while teh 1st year is tougher I think it really helps them in subsequent years of the degree and of their future careers. We need courses taught in English from the 1st year and even with the number of non- Finnish staff we do not have enough native English speaking staff - in fact we have 1 in total, me.
Sure, I guess everyone agrees that English is the working language of science and that the students should be exposed to it from early on. However, I as an "old-system student" never really saw this as a problem - even if most (but by far not all) of our courses were lectured in Finnish. All the textbooks naturally were in English. I actually rather see this as a benefit, as then the terminology will become familiar in both languages. I also strongly doubt that students would have forgotten all of their high-school English by their third year... Maybe this could be true for someone's highschool German, French, or Spanish, but hard to imagine it happening with English which we come across every day also in the so called normal life. I think it also should not be a point in itself to recruit native English speakers, but rather to find good scientists independent of nationality.
In my opinion, it should be for granted that every teacher gives lectures in English, if there is even one non-Finnish-speaking student in the audience, but I see no reason to do that if all the students are Finnish (I would guess, though, that there mostly are foreign students on the courses nowadays?).
ii) All of the text books and most of the material available on the web are in English. This makes learning the basics in English easier than learning them in Finnish; you don't understand something the lecturer said you have a huge number of choices to find out the information in whatever format suits you best. Students come in not knowing the biochemistry words, but they don't know them in Finnish either. Another comment to contextualise allm of this I have had comments from Finnish students that it is difficult to write exams on certain finnish-taught courses in Finnish because all the material available is in English and hence in the exam they are having to translate from English to Finnish in the exam.
No matter what the teaching language is, I think it is of utmost importance that the students also learn the terminology in their mothertongue. Mothertongue is the language of intelligence and if you cannot put something into words in your own language, I think, you hardly can claim to understand the point. Therefore, I would be very worried of a Finnish student who couldn't explain in Finnish something (s)he read in English...
iii) If Finns teach in English then they set a good example to the Finnish students - look it is possible to talk in English about biochemistry even if you are not a native English speaker. If only foreigners talk in English who is the example for Finnish students?
I have absolutely no problem with teaching in my non-native old- system English when there are students who don't understand Finnish but, when talking to Finnish students, I would find it akward to speak English and will for sure make my best to teach them in _good_ scientific Finnish (although, having grown old and lazy, I nowadays do forgive myself an occasional word of Finglish...) .
Again to contextualise this, the complaints from students came on Biomolecules about Tuomo and essentially (in the written forms that came past me) came from 2 students who were complaining mainly about 1 word he mispronounced. Finally on biomolecules we also have foreign students and so it has to be taught in English.
The benefits to the students far outweigh the costs.
What we do need is the English I course we originally designed and were promised and not the course we currently have that a large part of it is irrevelant to Biochemistry. Yet again I will have a meeting with Kielikeskus representatives about this.
Having said all this with a slight twinkle in my eye, I honestly hope not to have hurt anyones feelings. I hope we can keep on discussing this and other issues to improve both teaching and our research environment - also f2f.
With kind regards, Inari (with a happy marriage, four children, a passion for science, good friends, and maybe even some hobbies - at times exhausted with all this, but believing you only get one chance :-))
================================== Inari Kursula, Ph. D. Department of Biochemistry University of Oulu Oulu, Finland
inari.kursula@oulu.fi http://www.biochem.oulu.fi/tutkimus/ikursula/ http://cc.oulu.fi/~inkursul/ ==================================
On May 13, 2008, at 4:57 PM, Lloyd Ruddock wrote:
Dear all,
Raili raised some important points. My take on these are:
- we have to get feedback from all courses, many of them are now
missing
I agree with this completely, so many feedbacks did not get to the staff this year
- there are a lot of criticism about the order of courses
Biomolecules and Biokemian menetelmät I, which suggest that Biokemian menetelmät I should be the first, and Biomolecules after that.
I disagree with this very strongly. Methods I cannot be before Biomolecules for the simple reason that in Biomolecules students find out what is the structure of DNA, what is a protein, how does transcription, translation etc occur. Without these basic facts most of Methods I is meaningless - what can you say about SDS-PAGE or agarose-gel or PCR when you don't know anything about the molecules? Methods I was never the 1st course, it was the 1st practical course.
In an ideal world there would be some overlap between Biomolecules and Methods I i.e. they would run in part in parallel. This is effectively impossible due to timetabling constraints. The first year students do so much chemistry that there is not time for 2 biochemistry courses in parallel in the autumn term. Also we have to consider timetabling for biology and chemistry students who do these two courses. I have the autumn timetable in front of me to see what we can do to rearrange Biomolecules (it needs to be more compact), but it is difficult to do even this. Unless we bring Chemistry or Cell Biology (for 1st years) teaching in house we cannot run Biomolecules and Methods I in parallel. We cannot expand the teaching load at the moment, much as I would like to bring Cell Biology in house.
We should also contextualise what is meant by a "lot of critisism" about the order of the two courses......
Another major timetabling discussion is Microbiology. This is clearly not the equivalent of the other 2nd year courses, but there is no room for it in the 1st year and the other second year courses must go in the order Molecular Bioogy I - Protein Chemistry I / English for Biochemists II - Methods II. Combined with the teaching from other departments this leaves the only place for Microbiology to be where it is now. The better solution in my view for microbiology would be to have a course taught specifically for our students and not shaired with Process Engineeering, whose students know much less biochemistry are this point. Again we cannot expand the teaching load at the moment.
the third major timetabling issue is the lack of practical classes in the 3rd year. As discussed at feedback day in part this arose due to no practicals on the Cell Communication courses this year. However the major reason is that it was planned this way so that students could have the maximum flexibility for choosing their optional courses from other departments. With few practical classes and the large amount of self study in the BSc thesis we thought that students could have the flexibility to really do what they really wanted to do. We could balance the number of practicals between the years, but this would mean a serious loss of timetable flexibility in the 3rd year. Please could 3rd year students respon on this issue.
- Finns should teach in Finnish, not in English and
- English teching is OK, if it is supportive, not pressing too much
I disagree with this for three reasons:
i) English is the working language of Science. If you cannot communicate effectively in English you cannot succeed in science. Sad but true. In the old system the students had nothing in English until the 3rd year, by which point they had forgotten all of their high school English. The standard of English of our new system students is far better than are old system students and while teh 1st year is tougher I think it really helps them in subsequent years of the degree and of their future careers. We need courses taught in English from the 1st year and even with the number of non- Finnish staff we do not have enough native English speaking staff - in fact we have 1 in total, me.
ii) All of the text books and most of the material available on the web are in English. This makes learning the basics in English easier than learning them in Finnish; you don't understand something the lecturer said you have a huge number of choices to find out the information in whatever format suits you best. Students come in not knowing the biochemistry words, but they don't know them in Finnish either. Another comment to contextualise allm of this I have had comments from Finnish students that it is difficult to write exams on certain finnish-taught courses in Finnish because all the material available is in English and hence in the exam they are having to translate from English to Finnish in the exam.
iii) If Finns teach in English then they set a good example to the Finnish students - look it is possible to talk in English about biochemistry even if you are not a native English speaker. If only foreigners talk in English who is the example for Finnish students?
Again to contextualise this, the complaints from students came on Biomolecules about Tuomo and essentially (in the written forms that came past me) came from 2 students who were complaining mainly about 1 word he mispronounced. Finally on biomolecules we also have foreign students and so it has to be taught in English.
The benefits to the students far outweigh the costs.
What we do need is the English I course we originally designed and were promised and not the course we currently have that a large part of it is irrevelant to Biochemistry. Yet again I will have a meeting with Kielikeskus representatives about this.
- There are a lot of things we can try, in order to prevent
students flow to Medical campus -we should give concrete examples of working jobs to biochemists (as done earlier!), research is one choise but not the only one -we have to describe research projects going on in the department, and give the decription every year -tell to the student that science is fun, and tell them that we (most of us) are living normal life, having children, having other activities etc, not being workaholics!
Again to contextulalise this. This loss of students to the medical campus is virtually entirely in the 1st year. So we would need to do all of this effort to keep them in the first year at which point most of the research we do would be meaningless to the students. We already have presentations about research in Oulu to the 3rd year students (much earlier than we used to have them) and we have already agreed that these should be expanded next year to try to ensure all groups in the department present. We also have other features as part of that course e.g. public understanding of science etc that cover some of the other points. Unless I am missing something we present more things earlier on than ever before. An old system student said on the feedback day that they did not really understand what biochemistry was about until the Pro Gradu project. I hope that all of our new system students know this far earlier on.
We should also acknowledge that if somebody wants to go to medical school, they will go to medical school (if they get in - good luck to everyone taking the exams in a couple of weeks) no matter what we say about biochemistry.
The problem is (according to multiple students comments each year for the last 3 years) our new first year is much better training to get into medical school than our old first year - so paradoxically by getting better we lose more students.
Where we can try to cut down the loses is elsewhere, but again we should encourage not discourage 3rd years students to do MSc courses elsewhere if they better fit their future career choices, and at least several of the other losses from the system have not been losses to other departments/universities but a loss from the university to the "real world".
What we need to do is ADVERTISE in schools. too many 1st years tell me that they did not know what biochemistry was when they applied. The BSc thesis on public understanding of science includes options to go to a school but nobody did it this year. Some staff already do a lot towards public understanding of science, others do less and as an example just look how difficult it was for Sakari to get volunteers to help with science day.
On the final point science is fun, but according to nearly everyone who is asked to succeed in academic research it is hard work and something else has to be sacrificed. One recent article said that to suceed in modern science you could have only one of the following: a family, a major hobby, or going out and socializing regularly with friends. But to be good at ANYTHING you have to work at it, to sacrifice other things. It is also harder now than in the past to succeed in academic science (see attached recent article to get really depressed). We should not lie to our students, but nor should we treat it as something depressing. Why are we here doing the jobs we are doing if we could earn at least twice as much for far less work with the skills we have? There must be something? There is - the passion and the fun of finding things out, understanding how things work and knowing the impact that this can have on society through, in the case of biochemistry graduates who do research, understanding disease states and finding novel treatments or improvements to existing treatments.
Anyway it is 5 o'clock so I am off home to have fun with my children until they good to bed.
Best wishes,
Lloyd
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Inari,
Many thanks for adding to the debate.
I agree with many of the points you made, but to add a few comments to yours:
1) I agree fully we should not recruit staff based on the fact they are "native English speakers", we should recruit the best possible people totally independent of nationality. They should however be able to communicate effectively in English since it is the language departmental buisness is conducted in, but since English is the language science is conducted in this is not normally an issue.
To be honest if we got more "native English speakers" I would be in trouble as it would be revealed how significantly my English language skills have dropped significantly over the past 7 years.....
2) I agree fully that students must be able to communicate effectively about their subject in their mother tongue (so Finnish for most of our BSc intake). We have the new BSc thesis which is built around the theme Public Understanding of Science just to emphasise this point. Many of you will have seen the excellent posters the students made for this and presented outside Tellus, but there were also a lot of other things on that course. That I can remember we have had discussions on at least three occasions as to whether we should have a Finnish language course somewhere in the BSc, but have rejected it purely on the grounds that we would have to cut something else. As part of the BSc students do presentations both in Finnish and in English and over 60% of the courses they take are in Finnish. We must continue to teach in Finnish (as well as English) which is why we cannot open up BSc entry to non-Finnish speaking students and why we should perhaps also be a little more careful with who we accept as exchange students than we are.
3) As a teacher in the old system on the 1st course that was taught fully in English I know there were major problems with language shock (even more than the shock of having English in the 1st year). There were also lots of comments from students on the issue which fell into two categories a) don't have any teaching at all in English or b) have teaching in English earlier as well.
Regarding your final comment, we only have three small children to cope with rather than four but hopefully it all shows the students it is posible. As Olli said in his email what is important in life is a matter of personal evaluation, it is about getting the balance right for you. Finally it is amazing how little sleep it is possible to survive on!
VBW,
Lloyd
On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 4:57 PM, Lloyd Ruddock ruddock@sun3.oulu.fi wrote:
On the final point science is fun, but according to nearly everyone who is asked to succeed in academic research it is hard work and something else has to be sacrificed. One recent article said that to suceed in modern science you could have only one of the following: a family, a major hobby, or going out and socializing regularly with friends. But to be good at ANYTHING you have to work at it, to sacrifice other things. It is also harder now than in the past to succeed in academic science (see attached recent article to get really depressed). We should not lie to our students, but nor should we treat it as something depressing.
To equate succeeding in science to being able to have your own group, or more, is analogous to equating succeeding in industry to being able to have your own company. Both admirable accomplishments that must take a lot of continuing hard work. However, people can have different goals. Being able to do good work with interesting subjects is one, and it doesn't necessarily require round the clock dedication. I would not say that those who reach the latter goal and not the first have not succeeded in science. What is important in life is ultimately a matter of personal valuation.
-olli
Olli,
I agree with what you are saying, the point I was making was perhaps poorly made (I wanted by that stage in the email to be leaving for home).
VBW,
Lloyd
To equate succeeding in science to being able to have your own group, or more, is analogous to equating succeeding in industry to being able to have your own company. Both admirable accomplishments that must take a lot of continuing hard work. However, people can have different goals. Being able to do good work with interesting subjects is one, and it doesn't necessarily require round the clock dedication. I would not say that those who reach the latter goal and not the first have not succeeded in science. What is important in life is ultimately a matter of personal valuation.
-olli
- there are a lot of criticism about the order of courses Biomolecules and
Biokemian menetelmät I, which suggest that Biokemian menetelmät I should be the first, and Biomolecules after that.
As a practicals teacher, I would also like to comment on this subject.
The reason why first year students want to change the order of Biomolecules and Methodology I is simply the subjective experience of the working load in these courses. I have understood that Biomolecules practicals are a kind of shock for the first year students. The course is really compact and short, requiring really hard working and long working days. Since the laboratory is loaded with students and the amount of teachers is limited, organizing such a course is an admirable achievement. But still the students are shocked.
On the contrary, Methodology I practical course is far less compact being a 3 weeks course. The students to teachers ratio is reasonable allowing more guidance and more oral explanation on the theory behind the experiments. In this course the students also should start planning more their experiments by themselves which means that they have more time/experiment compared to Biomolecules course. Due to these things the subjective experience of the students is that the Methodology I course should be the first one.
This was only a description how students see the things. My comment is that considering the course contents the order should definitely be the one Lloyd suggested. But considering the working load and timetable, this I simply don't know because I never taught in Biomolecules course. And it's always hard to say what is best for students. They are lazy (as I a... was too) and verbally talented, and usually from Finnish culture. This means that on average they are not used to hard pressing, they can defend themselves verbally, and they maybe think short-sighted and want to make studying easy and fun. So maybe Lloyds hard pressing is simply very good for them...
With best regards, Mikko
Mikko,
Again I agree with a lot that you are saying, but there are also some other issues involved.
As Alex said on feedback day the first practical class will be a shock no matter what it is. The biomolecules course is not actually compact, it is too long and thin. It starts at the begining of September and runs until February, we are looking to try to compact it down if the timetable permits, perhaps to run October-December.
There are 6 practicals on the Biomolecules course, each of them nominally 1 day in length.
Two of the practicals are computer based.
1) Basic bioinformatics - always well done. Done in groups of up to 10 students (each with an individual protein to analyse in expasy). One demonstrator per group - the demonstrators often take other work along to these sessions as there is little for them to do, but they need to be there. Since it is web based half the class has often left by lunchtime to do it at home.
2) Visualization of biomolecules - always very well done. Done in groups of 10 students. One demonstrator per group. Again the demonstrators often take other work along to these session. Again since the work is given on CD half the class has often left by lunchtime.
Four of the practical classes are "one day" wet practicals.
1) Preparation of DNA from onion. For an experienced person this takes 1 hour to do. Students start finnishing 2 hours after the start (they are expected to find safety equipment where the safety equipment is as well as the other first practical chaos). Biggest delay is the nano-drop for analysis. Biggest problem year-on-year is that several of the male students do not know how to chop onions finely.
2) Preparation of ovalbumin from egg white and gel filtration. Again these are easy practicals to do physically, but they require students to work efficiently with their lab partner. There was a serious problem in the first year with the gel matrix used which was a slow flow matrix and caused delays. Students start fininishing around 4-5 hours after starting. The hardest thing for this practical is the maths in one of the write up questions. Biggest delays are lack of centifuges and students watching each other instead of doing something else. Biggest problem year-on-year is that several of the male students do not know how to break an egg so as to separate the white from the yolk.
3) Analysis of sugars in honey part 1 and paper chromatography of sugars. First practical to start making standard curves and so more difficult than 1 and 2. I plan to drop the paper chromatography next year and to bring both parts of the analysis of sugars in honey together. There was a serious problem in the second year the course ran due to one of the reagents being problematic. Students start finishing around 4-5 hours after starting.
4) Analysis of sugars part 2 and TLC of spinach extract. Similar to 3 but less problematic as this is the 2nd set of standard curves to make. Serious problem this year as the first students who finished did their analysis calculations as they went along and got them wrong and we didn't spot the error and thought the 0.1% honey solution had been made up wrong. It wasn't. Moving the 2 parts of the analysis of sugars together will avoid this in future. TLC - some write ups are beautiful works of art with perfect colour reproductions in coloured pencils (I know this is irrelevant to the discussion but I really liked them it brightens up the marking...one or two students every year do it....) Students start finishing around 4-5 hours after starting.
While some students start finishing early, some students are there 7-8 hours (we close the lab at 5pm most of the time as the demonstrators want to go home and every year this means asking one pair to leave with at least part of an experiment unfinished). Very few students are there beyond 4pm.
Apart from the problems listed above the other issues are:
1) Large class sizes - we have 50-65 students all at once in the labs. We did this because there teaching loads during the new system phase-in meant we did not have the demonstrators spare to run two separate sessions. As discussed in the feedback day we should have more demonstrators from this year (as biokemia II experiment numbers drop by half). Hopefully Jari can solve the demonstrator and timetable issues so we can split the class in two. This will make a HUGE difference both to the chaos and to the equipment issue.
2) Student participation in the pre-lab sessions. At the start of each lab session there is a one hour session with feedback from the last lab and looking forward at what will be done in that days lab. Roughly 25-30% of the class do not attend these sessions and then do not know what is happening in the lab.
3) Some students do not read the manual in advance. This manual was also supposed to be part of the English for Biochemists I course, but it did not appear in the course.
Changes for next year:
1) Change the timetable to make Biomolecules more compact (if possible)
2) Split the practical class in 2 (if possible - we should finally have enough demonstrators to be able to do this)
3) Drop the paper chromatography practical and rearrange the rest of practical 3 and 4 to make it more coherent
4) Have an extra 1 hour session before the first practical class on "equipment in English" (this was supposed to be in English for Biochemists I, but did not appear). I will also prepare a sheet on this and post it on moodle.
5) Make the pre-lab sessions compulsory attendance (there should be no timetable clashes anyway).
6) Add the missing maths test / examples to Moodle (to join the other 4 self-tests)
7) Re-jig the handouts to include a little more text and to make much more space for students to write notes on the handouts.
As you said Mikko one BIG difference between the Biomolecules practicals and the Methods I practicals is that in methods I the students have to start planning their own practical work, while in biomolecules there is only one small part of one practical which is not in the manual and the students are told they have to work out for themselves.
VBW,
Lloyd
-----Original Message----- From: Mikko Salin [mailto:mikko.salin@oulu.fi] Sent: 14. toukokuuta 2008 9:35 To: Lloyd.Ruddock@oulu.fi; Lloyd Ruddock Cc: bklist@lists.oulu.fi; histoni@paju.oulu.fi Subject: RE: [Bklist] more about feedback
- there are a lot of criticism about the order of courses
Biomolecules and Biokemian menetelmät I, which suggest that Biokemian menetelmät I should be the first, and Biomolecules after that.
As a practicals teacher, I would also like to comment on this subject.
The reason why first year students want to change the order of Biomolecules and Methodology I is simply the subjective experience of the working load in these courses. I have understood that Biomolecules practicals are a kind of shock for the first year students. The course is really compact and short, requiring really hard working and long working days. Since the laboratory is loaded with students and the amount of teachers is limited, organizing such a course is an admirable achievement. But still the students are shocked.
On the contrary, Methodology I practical course is far less compact being a 3 weeks course. The students to teachers ratio is reasonable allowing more guidance and more oral explanation on the theory behind the experiments. In this course the students also should start planning more their experiments by themselves which means that they have more time/experiment compared to Biomolecules course. Due to these things the subjective experience of the students is that the Methodology I course should be the first one.
This was only a description how students see the things. My comment is that considering the course contents the order should definitely be the one Lloyd suggested. But considering the working load and timetable, this I simply don't know because I never taught in Biomolecules course. And it's always hard to say what is best for students. They are lazy (as I a... was too) and verbally talented, and usually from Finnish culture. This means that on average they are not used to hard pressing, they can defend themselves verbally, and they maybe think short-sighted and want to make studying easy and fun. So maybe Lloyds hard pressing is simply very good for them...
With best regards, Mikko
I am busy as always, but some brief comments to the discussion:
There is a feedback mechanism built in WebOodi, is there? (I have heard, but not used). Is it possible to use that or another electronic feedback system such that the students will not get the credits from a course to his/her WebOodi accout before the feedback is supplied (but so that the feedback itself remains anonymous)? Miki, A-P,... can you comment?
It seems to me that when the new cellular biochemistry professor and the new cell biology senior assistant (following Sakari?) are in the office we should/could take cell biology teaching to in-house (and I know we have other people in-house who could contribute to cell biology teaching as well).
Now that the international MSc gets really going with lots more students from abroad, we should realize the new Histoni premises (that Lloyd told about on Friday) and have a joint meeting/coffee place for Finnish and foreign students - this would help the English of our students as well as will help integrating foreign students into the community. Our students would learn from the beginning that there will always be foreingners as job mates in science (and this is nowadays true also in other working places), and this is a good thing, and remember that Finns work abroad as well.
Losing students to Med school I agree we cannot do much. There was some suggestion earlier to put Med school and our entrance exams on the same day to prevent applying to both. This would not help us - we would lose applicants, and also technically this would be hard since our entrance exam is connected to Chemistry exam, which is national and so connected to other universities.
I will go to give talks in schools in Oulu next winter, I promise. I wanted to do this already the past winter but had eventually no time due to all the other work. But now I´m more prepared...
Lloyd already commented about BSc thesis posters - the third year students really showed that it is no problem to find out difficult things from English literature and present it in good Finnish to the public. I have talked sometimes about good Finnish - mainly prompted by some pro gradu assessments by staff members stating "perfect Finnish" where in fact the text has been loaded with comma errors, compound errors etc. (also the assessment itself...). We should not assess something we do not master well ourselves..eh? (I hope no-one gets offended, but I think I know some rules of basic Finnish). The third year students patiently agreed with me that it is good that I make remarks about their errors in Finnish and accepted that good language is one part of the plausibility of the text as a whole.
I also think we do not need a Finnish course in the curriculum - it would not motivate any of us. We simply should take a responsible attitude towards our own language - it is not difficult! I recommend everyone to have a look (Lloyd, you do not have to...) at the following web site next time you write a text or assess a pro gradu. There you can find in an easy format the basic rules how to write Finnish words right. Please make this a bookmark in your browser and you can always quickly check words and rules. http://webcgi.oulu.fi/oykk/abc/
Being scientist is fun, I agree. Currently I only wish I would have time to do experiments myself. One can also have "normal life" - I know by experience. I go to hobbies of my own and with my children, but I also do work at home in the evenings and week-end - not all the time and every day, but regularly as it is needed. It is fine with me to mix working time and "free" time to some extent to get things done. It is all a matter of if you like what you are doing, if you want to improve and survive, if you want to at least try to do your best, and that if you can just organize the daily life. And this is the same in many, many other jobs "out there" - it is wishful thinking that in another high-education job there would be "more free time".
Tuomo
===========================================================================
Tuomo Glumoff, FT, Dos., Lehtori Tuomo Glumoff, Ph.D., Lecturer
Oulun yliopisto University of Oulu
Biokemian laitos Department of Biochemistry
PL 3000 Box 3000
90014 OULUN YLIOPISTO FIN-90014 UNIVERSITY OF OULU
Finland
Kontaktitiedot / contact information:
http://www.biochem.oulu.fi/henkilokunta/glumoff/
Tel. (matkapuh. / mobile) +358-(0)50-522 6136
Tuomo,
Much I agree with.
Three minor comments:
1) Anonymous feedback via web-oodi is possible (students say they do will be doing it on other courses) and we should look into that as a potentially compulsory option (feedback MUST be anonymous).
2) Could the web link you suggested be added to the departmental web pages under teaching?
3) The responsibility of presenting at schools should not just fall on your shoulders.
VBW,
Lloyd
-----Original Message----- From: bklist-bounces@lists.oulu.fi [mailto:bklist-bounces@lists.oulu.fi] On Behalf Of Tuomo Glumoff Sent: 14. toukokuuta 2008 10:15 To: bklist@lists.oulu.fi; histoni@paju.oulu.fi Subject: RE: [Bklist] more about feedback
I am busy as always, but some brief comments to the discussion:
There is a feedback mechanism built in WebOodi, is there? (I have heard, but not used). Is it possible to use that or another electronic feedback system such that the students will not get the credits from a course to his/her WebOodi accout before the feedback is supplied (but so that the feedback itself remains anonymous)? Miki, A-P,... can you comment?
It seems to me that when the new cellular biochemistry professor and the new cell biology senior assistant (following Sakari?) are in the office we should/could take cell biology teaching to in-house (and I know we have other people in-house who could contribute to cell biology teaching as well).
Now that the international MSc gets really going with lots more students from abroad, we should realize the new Histoni premises (that Lloyd told about on Friday) and have a joint meeting/coffee place for Finnish and foreign students - this would help the English of our students as well as will help integrating foreign students into the community. Our students would learn from the beginning that there will always be foreingners as job mates in science (and this is nowadays true also in other working places), and this is a good thing, and remember that Finns work abroad as well.
Losing students to Med school I agree we cannot do much. There was some suggestion earlier to put Med school and our entrance exams on the same day to prevent applying to both. This would not help us - we would lose applicants, and also technically this would be hard since our entrance exam is connected to Chemistry exam, which is national and so connected to other universities.
I will go to give talks in schools in Oulu next winter, I promise. I wanted to do this already the past winter but had eventually no time due to all the other work. But now I´m more prepared...
Lloyd already commented about BSc thesis posters - the third year students really showed that it is no problem to find out difficult things from English literature and present it in good Finnish to the public. I have talked sometimes about good Finnish - mainly prompted by some pro gradu assessments by staff members stating "perfect Finnish" where in fact the text has been loaded with comma errors, compound errors etc. (also the assessment itself...). We should not assess something we do not master well ourselves..eh? (I hope no-one gets offended, but I think I know some rules of basic Finnish). The third year students patiently agreed with me that it is good that I make remarks about their errors in Finnish and accepted that good language is one part of the plausibility of the text as a whole.
I also think we do not need a Finnish course in the curriculum - it would not motivate any of us. We simply should take a responsible attitude towards our own language - it is not difficult! I recommend everyone to have a look (Lloyd, you do not have to...) at the following web site next time you write a text or assess a pro gradu. There you can find in an easy format the basic rules how to write Finnish words right. Please make this a bookmark in your browser and you can always quickly check words and rules. http://webcgi.oulu.fi/oykk/abc/
Being scientist is fun, I agree. Currently I only wish I would have time to do experiments myself. One can also have "normal life" - I know by experience. I go to hobbies of my own and with my children, but I also do work at home in the evenings and week-end - not all the time and every day, but regularly as it is needed. It is fine with me to mix working time and "free" time to some extent to get things done. It is all a matter of if you like what you are doing, if you want to improve and survive, if you want to at least try to do your best, and that if you can just organize the daily life. And this is the same in many, many other jobs "out there" - it is wishful thinking that in another high-education job there would be "more free time".
Tuomo
===========================================================================
Tuomo Glumoff, FT, Dos., Lehtori Tuomo Glumoff, Ph.D., Lecturer
Oulun yliopisto University of Oulu
Biokemian laitos Department of Biochemistry
PL 3000 Box 3000
90014 OULUN YLIOPISTO FIN-90014 UNIVERSITY OF OULU
Finland
Kontaktitiedot / contact information:
http://www.biochem.oulu.fi/henkilokunta/glumoff/
Tel. (matkapuh. / mobile) +358-(0)50-522 6136
Could the web link you suggested be added to the departmental web pages under teaching ?
- will do
The responsibility of presenting at schools should not just fall on your shoulders
- of course not, but I am interested in it
Tuomo
Hello all,
here's my contribution to the discussion:
1) on the matter of courses in english vs. courses in finnish.
Lloyd is correct in stating that english is THE science language of our time, and our students have to be able to communicate clearly in this language. Therefore, it is necessary to have courses in english and start early with these courses in the program
However, I find it unnecessary (if not absurd) to have courses by finnish lecturers held to finnish students in english. The point has been made by several people that the students have to be able to speak about their studies (and later about their reseach) to other finnish speakers. It is one of our task to be able to communicate to the rest of the world (i.e. the public) what we are doing. I strongly believe that forcing the english so early in the studies it is an effective means of chasing away interested students; also please consider that it is not uncommon that mathematically gifted people have less of a gift for language - do we want to chase these away?
Students can witness the communication in english by fins in our department every day, which is the best in terms of function as role models.
A slow build-up of english skills rather than a first semester shock treatment is more appropriate in my opinion
The overall level of english in this department is very good; certainly compared to Universities in other, bigger (in terms of populations) European countries. I have not met a single student form the old system that was not able to communicate on an level in english by the time they finished their Pro Gradu. That we have to start earlier in the new B.Sc. program is clear, but there is enough to cope with already in the first semester.
2) I do not think that we have to take it as a law of nature that we will lose a large number of first years to med school. Certainly, if we are able to make the first year exciting and get the students even more interested in the field, we should be able to sway some minds.
Hence, it is VERY important that the first practical course is exciting, and I again strongly suggest that we find ways to have more teachers in that course. Students should be working in small groups of 4-5; with a dedicated assistant that is available to them all the time (barring lunch and coffee breaks) during the course
3) (this is related)I have heard from several assistants that they feel they spend more time evaluating the students than teaching them. I believe this is backwards from how things should be. I know that Lloyd and I disagree on this, but for me excitement and "fun" comes first in the practical courses. People should be in awe of what wondrous experiments we can carry out, what great tools we have to do so, and have the privilege to play with, instead of having to worry about getting evaluated about the outcome of their work at this stage. There is nothing more instructional than making mistakes (and tracking them down and fixing them).
4) This refers to the comment made by a student about nor really knowing what biochemístry really was until he did their Master's thesis research.
Going to schools to advertise for our field is important, but it will not change the fact that people will only start to understand what biochemical research really is when they actually do research on the bench - which has previously meant basically by the time students are well into their pro gradu work. Hence, the sooner we can get students to work on independent projects that mean something (i.e. produce new data) the better. If I understand correctly, the module that is now going to be in place instead of BKII will attempt this.
5) If you read the article Lloyd attached, you'll realize that he simplified the statement there; it says ("omitted" parts of the statement in caps): UNTIL YOU ARE WELL INTO YOUR CAREER, there will be time in your life for just one additional significant activity, but PROBABLY NOT MUCH MORE THAN THAT. So, it's not quite as miserable an existence as it sounded in the email, and there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Also: since my daughter was born, my active social life revolves mostly around my family, so that's two for the price of one :-).
(Excitement revisited: How about a microsymposium for first years, where representatives of the research groups talk about the work done here, with a more of a focus on what amazing things we do here and less on the scientific details)
Best
Alex
Alexander Kastaniotis, Ph.D. Department of Biochemistry and Biocenter Oulu P.O.Box 3000 FIN-90014 University of Oulu Finland Phone: +358-8-5531201 FAX: +358-8-5531141
Alex,
Many thanks for this. There is much I agree with and some things that as you said we have agreed to disagree on in the past. A few comments though starting with language:
1) To contextualise English teaching by Finns - there is one half of one course that is taught by a Finnish lecturer in English and the other half of the course is taught by me and a) the course is supposed to link in with English for Biochemists I and b) there are often non-Finns in the student body. Tuomo cannot be expected to have the material prepared in Finnish and in English. Since most/all years we have had non-Finns present and the supposed link with English I the language has to be English.
2) You say "it is necessary to have courses in english and start early with these courses in the program" but that "forcing the english so early in the studies it is an effective means of chasing away interested students". What are you views then on when it should start?
3) I agree with your comments about students in the old system by the time they did their Pro Gradu their English standards were appropriate, but see also my previous comments about the shock of the 1st course in English in the old system. I would also add that the standard of English (and Finnish communication about science) of the current 3rd year students is much higher on average than that of 3rd year students in the old system (but then we have specific courses on communication).
4) We have one other thorny issue that I know will upset some people to think about - if we carry on with the policy of only allowing senior staff to lecture (which gets rid of lots of problems we used to have - though creates others) - we do not have enough senior staff who can teach in Finnish to cover all of the basics. Furthermore if we keep to the policy we stated earlier of recruiting the best people regardless of nationality this problem may get worse (or it may get better). If Biomolecules gets taught in Finnish then the 1st course the students will have in English will be Physical Biochemistry I and that will be an even bigger shock to their system (no offence meant Andre, but thermodynamics and English all in one)
5) If a student has weak English and sees me I am happy to go through things with them. One year I spent one hour per lecture going through the material again with respect to langauge issues with one individual student. One thought discussed before is a tutorial system that aids teaching. Uli offered to do this for chemistry courses, other people used to have sessions where no students turned up. If we can get some other issues sorted out I am happy to do this for Biomolecules i.e. 1 hour per week specifically timetabled to discuss issues (including lanaguge) connected with the course.
6) There was a grand plan of helping the students by integration of language courses with other courses. I think it has worked very well for English II and Swedish I. It has not worked at all for English I, with only 1 tiny part of the integration remaining (the practice for the debate). I think English I has to be biochemistry orientated and has to be 1st year (to cope with reading textbooks in English and practicing oral and aural skills), but this means that to work properly it has to be integrated with a biocehmistry course taught in English that runs in parallel....
Your other issues:
1) I agree we need to get the group size down for Biomolecules practicals - this was just a limitation of how many demonstrators we had available during the phase in.
2) We have agreed to disagree on whether practical classes should be evaluated in the sense of counting towards the mark for their class and we shouldn't go through those arguments again (unless somebody else wants to), but I will say that no demonstrator on any of my courses spends more time evaluating students than teaching them. They spend no time on evaluation, I mark all the reports. Also I do not require the "old-system" standard report, which as many of you know I think is a waste of time for students, staff and demonstrators on most courses (it has a function on Methods I). I aim to test understanding and to try and reinforce what is taught on the "lecture" part of the course through comprehension and data analysis questions.
3) In the 2nd year course methods II students are characterizing and analysing the data for a previously uncharacterized mutant protein (with each student ideally have a unique mutant, though in practice there are something like 10 variants in the class of 15 this year). Students do most equipment individually and are then supposed to combine results for the report. It is VERY demonstrator intensive (15 x half days with each student individually on the stopped-flow, CD, fluorometer, quenched-flow, micro-calorimeter and BIACORE). At least some of the results they get are novel, to the extent that one mutant this year we want to do some major follow up work on because it behaves SO unexpectedly. The new integration into research group course should also help from the 4th year. Also I take on 2-5 summer students every year all of whom are 1st or 2nd year students and Andre has several undergraduate students very firmly embedded in his group doing research. There are lots of possibilities.
Finally the microsymposium idea sounds good - but the implementation relates to the question I posed earlier to 1st year students - any answers from you yet?
VBW,
Lloyd
-----Original Message----- From: bklist-bounces@lists.oulu.fi [mailto:bklist-bounces@lists.oulu.fi] On Behalf Of Alexander Kastaniotis Sent: 14. toukokuuta 2008 11:53 To: Tuomo.Glumoff@oulu.fi; Tuomo Glumoff Cc: histoni@paju.oulu.fi; bklist@lists.oulu.fi Subject: RE: [Bklist] more about feedback
Hello all,
here's my contribution to the discussion:
1) on the matter of courses in english vs. courses in finnish.
Lloyd is correct in stating that english is THE science language of our time, and our students have to be able to communicate clearly in this language. Therefore, it is necessary to have courses in english and start early with these courses in the program
However, I find it unnecessary (if not absurd) to have courses by finnish lecturers held to finnish students in english. The point has been made by several people that the students have to be able to speak about their studies (and later about their reseach) to other finnish speakers. It is one of our task to be able to communicate to the rest of the world (i.e. the public) what we are doing. I strongly believe that forcing the english so early in the studies it is an effective means of chasing away interested students; also please consider that it is not uncommon that mathematically gifted people have less of a gift for language - do we want to chase these away?
Students can witness the communication in english by fins in our department every day, which is the best in terms of function as role models.
A slow build-up of english skills rather than a first semester shock treatment is more appropriate in my opinion
The overall level of english in this department is very good; certainly compared to Universities in other, bigger (in terms of populations) European countries. I have not met a single student form the old system that was not able to communicate on an level in english by the time they finished their Pro Gradu. That we have to start earlier in the new B.Sc. program is clear, but there is enough to cope with already in the first semester.
2) I do not think that we have to take it as a law of nature that we will lose a large number of first years to med school. Certainly, if we are able to make the first year exciting and get the students even more interested in the field, we should be able to sway some minds.
Hence, it is VERY important that the first practical course is exciting, and I again strongly suggest that we find ways to have more teachers in that course. Students should be working in small groups of 4-5; with a dedicated assistant that is available to them all the time (barring lunch and coffee breaks) during the course
3) (this is related)I have heard from several assistants that they feel they spend more time evaluating the students than teaching them. I believe this is backwards from how things should be. I know that Lloyd and I disagree on this, but for me excitement and "fun" comes first in the practical courses. People should be in awe of what wondrous experiments we can carry out, what great tools we have to do so, and have the privilege to play with, instead of having to worry about getting evaluated about the outcome of their work at this stage. There is nothing more instructional than making mistakes (and tracking them down and fixing them).
4) This refers to the comment made by a student about nor really knowing what biochemístry really was until he did their Master's thesis research.
Going to schools to advertise for our field is important, but it will not change the fact that people will only start to understand what biochemical research really is when they actually do research on the bench - which has previously meant basically by the time students are well into their pro gradu work. Hence, the sooner we can get students to work on independent projects that mean something (i.e. produce new data) the better. If I understand correctly, the module that is now going to be in place instead of BKII will attempt this.
5) If you read the article Lloyd attached, you'll realize that he simplified the statement there; it says ("omitted" parts of the statement in caps): UNTIL YOU ARE WELL INTO YOUR CAREER, there will be time in your life for just one additional significant activity, but PROBABLY NOT MUCH MORE THAN THAT. So, it's not quite as miserable an existence as it sounded in the email, and there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Also: since my daughter was born, my active social life revolves mostly around my family, so that's two for the price of one :-).
(Excitement revisited: How about a microsymposium for first years, where representatives of the research groups talk about the work done here, with a more of a focus on what amazing things we do here and less on the scientific details)
Best
Alex
Alexander Kastaniotis, Ph.D. Department of Biochemistry and Biocenter Oulu P.O.Box 3000 FIN-90014 University of Oulu Finland Phone: +358-8-5531201 FAX: +358-8-5531141
_______________________________________________ Bklist mailing list Bklist@lists.oulu.fi http://lists.oulu.fi/mailman/listinfo/bklist
Some feedback about biomolecules course, which I assisted first time this year.
1) language
I was only native Finn assisting these practicals... and I was NOT allowed to speak any Finnish during the course. This I did not like and I found necessary to help students in Finnish at their first lab course.. where they did not know words for equipment and glassware etc. BUT If I get caught Lloyd admonished me about it INFRONT of students. (I did not like that either).
- result. I did it anyway but "secret" and students knew it. After Lloyd or English speaking assistants advices some students still came to me to ask same question! They did not understand!
-I think it was wrong to tell me not to speak any Finnish for the first place!
2) pipetting
Students did not know how to use pipets. And we did not have time to check how many needed help in this matter. I notice this when they came to measure nanodrops...
3) too many people for 5 assistants
Days were long and we were all the time just pushing they to be quicker... So not much fun to be in lab.
4) Feedback?
At least I did not see any feedbacks after this course.. shouldn't they go past all assistants?
5) Accidents?
What is the normal behavior after something happens in student labs? I think matters should be discussed afterwards not silence. When I wanted to talk to Lloyd about the accident in labs, He behaved like there is nothing to talk! At least not with ME.
Sanna
This is an interesting (and from my view very inaccurate) viewpoint on many issues.
1) Yes I want the demonstrators to talk in English where possible (the students need to practice), but I have also said to the Finnish demonstrators (there are usually 2 Finns at least) that where issues cannot be explained in English then switch to Finnish to make sure the students understand.
The "admonishment" in front of students was along the lines of "In english, please". I am sorry if you found this offensive.
2) Students do not know how to use pippettes when they come to the course - it is the 1st practical course they do and the nano-drop is the 1st piece of equipment they need to use them! One of the things the demonstrators are supposed to do is show them how.
3) I agree too many people for 5 assistants, see previous comments. Even more too many for the 4 demonstrators we actually had most of the time when one of the demonstrators was not there.
4) Feedbacks went past people in the normal way as organised by Tuula. I know Feras, Dat and Francois saw at least some of them. I also know that some Biomolecules feedbacks did not go to any member of staff (at least not if there were 39 of them in total) which is another issue.
5) I am stunned by the final comment. I take safety very seriously. I do a safety session beforehand. I tell students to find out where all the safety equipment is and warn them they will be asked to leave the lab if they cannot tell me where the safety equipment is. I tell students (and demonstrators) when they are not following safe practice.
To be honest I am not even sure which incident you are refering to. The most dangerous incident last year was a mistake by the demonstrators at the end of one session that nearly caused a fire. This was discovered by somebody else and reported to Kalervo as Head of Department and Kalervo wanted to deal with it so I kept out. There were also a couple of incidents of broken glass and one dropped toxic reagent which the students were asked to keep clear of while demonstrators (myself included) tided it up. I have just asked two of the other demonstrators and they are not aware of any other incidents.
There are other issues connected with all of this, but they are best dealt with outside the list emails.
-----Original Message----- From: bklist-bounces@lists.oulu.fi [mailto:bklist-bounces@lists.oulu.fi] On Behalf Of Sanna Partanen Sent: 14. toukokuuta 2008 13:48 To: histoni@lists.oulu.fi Cc: bklist@lists.oulu.fi Subject: RE: [Bklist] more about feedback
Some feedback about biomolecules course, which I assisted first time this year.
1) language
I was only native Finn assisting these practicals... and I was NOT allowed to speak any Finnish during the course. This I did not like and I found necessary to help students in Finnish at their first lab course.. where they did not know words for equipment and glassware etc. BUT If I get caught Lloyd admonished me about it INFRONT of students. (I did not like that either).
- result. I did it anyway but "secret" and students knew it. After Lloyd or English speaking assistants advices some students still came to me to ask same question! They did not understand!
-I think it was wrong to tell me not to speak any Finnish for the first place!
2) pipetting
Students did not know how to use pipets. And we did not have time to check how many needed help in this matter. I notice this when they came to measure nanodrops...
3) too many people for 5 assistants
Days were long and we were all the time just pushing they to be quicker... So not much fun to be in lab.
4) Feedback?
At least I did not see any feedbacks after this course.. shouldn't they go past all assistants?
5) Accidents?
What is the normal behavior after something happens in student labs? I think matters should be discussed afterwards not silence. When I wanted to talk to Lloyd about the accident in labs, He behaved like there is nothing to talk! At least not with ME.
Sanna
_______________________________________________ Bklist mailing list Bklist@lists.oulu.fi http://lists.oulu.fi/mailman/listinfo/bklist