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Re: [Bklist] 3rd Year Students' Teacher Training
by Juha Kerätär 16 May '08

16 May '08

Some thoughts from brink of graduation: If the option to assist in teaching had been there during my third or fourth year (in the less illustrious old system), I'd have jumped on the chance. Though teaching as the main career choice is smaller option to us than for pure chemists and biologists for example, it is one, and being there in the lab in some other role than student can really open up eyes to new career opportunities during the B.Sc or M.Sc studies. However, this option really should be optional course, not a mandatory one integrated to the degree. Care should be taken to compensate adequately (in form of study points) the students taking part in it. And there most definitely should be some small package of guidance on how to teach in lab course, not just assuming that once the students have completed the course themselves, they're fully fit to teach there. In my opinion, even if the subject is familiar tackling it in guiding role is different than doing so in a learning one. All in all, the possibility to assist in teaching should be seen more as an additional option of gaining different kind of experience for students, than a way of compensating for the lacking teaching resources (which hopefully will improve with the new glorious system rolling in and old one phasing out) with student aid. Juha -- "When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." CS Lewis On Fri, 16 May 2008, Mikko Salin wrote: > Good idea Niko, > > It may be a perfect solution. The students who end up being teachers > in our department should anyway take this course (theory part) sooner > or later. And then, if this course is taken in so early, the benefit > in those people's teaching quality is maximized. While being a > practical part of a teaching course should also overcome the legal > matters. The main responsibility should anyway rest on the shoulders > of "real" teachers. > > And yet one more positive thing: we learn best when we teach; this is > true for us teachers also. If we should teach other teachers to keep > laboratory safe, we learn and pay more attention on it. > > And more, feedback is given when you most desperately need it: after > your first teaching sessions. In the current system we teachers are > totally lost the few first days in a new practical course... > > BW, > Mikko > >> Quoting Niko Pursiainen <npursiai(a)mail.student.oulu.fi>: >> >> > Hi all, >> > >> > Here are some thoughts I have regarding the idea about 3rd year students >> > participating in the teaching of 1st year students. Basically it could >> > be >> > done as a course for them, perhaps with following structure: >> > >> > Early in the autumn they would receive 1-2 day training in teaching in >> > the >> > way our staff is trained by Teaching Development Unit. Maybe they would >> > be >> > even willing to help here, as it is their specialty. This would be the >> > theory part of this teaching course. >> > >> > The practical part of the course would be assisting the teachers in >> > running practicals. They would be assigned to one of the courses >> > (Biomolecules, Methods I...) based on where they would be more helpful >> > and >> > also based on their course load. They would help in preparing and >> > running >> > said practicals and thus get good picture of how things work. >> > >> > After this they would write short report on the experience and have >> > final >> > meeting where they would give and receive feedback. >> > >> > All this would require more effort from some of the staff in terms of >> > total hours spent, but it would also add more help for those moments >> > where the staff is at its thinnest. For students it would give >> > valuable teaching experience. >> > >> > In summary, I see great potential in this idea of getting 3rd year >> > students involved with teaching 1st year students' practicals. Good >> > idea, >> > Alex. >> > >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Niko >> > >>> _______________________________________________ >> > Bklist mailing list >> > Bklist(a)lists.oulu.fi >> > http://lists.oulu.fi/mailman/listinfo/bklist >> > >> >> >> >> > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > > _______________________________________________ > Bklist mailing list > Bklist(a)lists.oulu.fi > http://lists.oulu.fi/mailman/listinfo/bklist >

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Jobs
by Lloyd Ruddock 16 May '08

16 May '08

Dear all, One student (who wishes to remain annonymous) has been doing a lot of good work looking into info available on employment rates of biochemists in Oulu and one important conclusion he has reached is that the number of replies to surveys among biochemists is so small as to make the % employment rates nearly meaningless. For example, in one survey 91% of our graduates were in employment but this was from a response of 11 ex-students so it was 1 who was unemployed. With these sorts of numbers just 1 person changing their employment status would mean either that we have an apparent 100% employment (yippee!) or nearly 20% unemployment (boo!). Be careful to make sure you know what results are being described. Remember there are three types of lies; lies, damn lies and statistics. As somebody yesterday pointed out there are a huge number of jobs available for biochemists worldwide, but the job market in Oulu is more limited. As Emmanuel pointed out today and Kalervo on feedback day - the training we try to give our students means that they are highly regarded by other people, amongst biochemists you should have high employability and the field that includes biochemistry is a hugely growing job market. VBW, Lloyd

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Feedback from student
by Lloyd Ruddock 16 May '08

16 May '08

Feedback from an international student currently finishing a Pro Gradu in a prestiguous group in London. -----Original Message----- From: Emmanuel Nji [mailto:emmanuel.nji@oulu.fi] Sent: 15. toukokuuta 2008 21:17 To: lloyd.ruddock(a)oulu.fi Cc: enji(a)mail.student.fi Subject: Feedback What a nice debate to improve our precious academic atmosphere. Without much ado, three comments from me. 1) About employment Most people have stressed the fact that there is a high probability of getting a job as a Biochemist just to encourage students to do the subject which is OK but two things are missing; To get a job any where you need to demonstrate high standards and mastery of your field of studies and also how long must you study before you consider yourself as a successful Biochemist. I must proudly say the standard of teaching in this Department is very high, Everywhere our students go supervisors are amazed with the competence of our practical skills, At least students from this Department who had taken their Pro Gradu training abroad can testify. It might interest first year students to know that with just a Bachelor degree in Biochemistry your dreams can be fulfilled. I have come across many job opportunities (see attachment for an example) where the required skills were taught in the Protein Chemistry I and the Biochemical methods II courses. It is an amazing thing to know that all these skills were acquired already by our students at the end of their second year only. 2) Medicine/Biochemistry I know that in some countries like USA, it is the duty of the Biochemistry department to train students for medical schools for at least 4 years, so we should see those going to medical school as part of us and not traitors as Ulli said. I don?t know if the medical school can be influence to create and entrance exam for Biochemist after their Bachelor degree, may be this will in some way prove to first year students that the two subjects are related and who knows after their third year they may see no need to go to the medical school since at that level they must have known what Biochemistry really is. 3) Language To succeed in life generally you should be able to adapt to change, God knows how I survived a transition of temperature from +32 to -10 degrees Celsius. I had to adapt because I had to obtain a Master?s degree in Biochemistry of high standard which is amazingly tuition free. Students should learn how to cope with English language. I thing one student suggested the constant speaking of the language even if you are not fluent enough. Be assured that no body is perfect when it comes to language not even Lloyd, who is English and use to make spelling errors during lectures. Accept my kind regards, Emmanuel (Manu)

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RE: [Bklist] 3rd Year Students' Teacher Training
by Lloyd Ruddock 16 May '08

16 May '08

Niko, Many thanks for these useful thoughts. I had come to the same conclusions you had and was considering if we should think of it as a stand alone course or try to integrate it into the BSc thesis. We do need more student views about how they feel (1 positive and no negative so far, but 1 viewpoint is not enough to make decisions on). We also need to think the details and implications through carefully. VBW, Lloyd -----Original Message----- From: bklist-bounces(a)lists.oulu.fi [mailto:bklist-bounces@lists.oulu.fi] On Behalf Of Niko Pursiainen Sent: 15. toukokuuta 2008 15:44 To: bklist(a)lists.oulu.fi Subject: [Bklist] 3rd Year Students' Teacher Training Hi all, Here are some thoughts I have regarding the idea about 3rd year students participating in the teaching of 1st year students. Basically it could be done as a course for them, perhaps with following structure: Early in the autumn they would receive 1-2 day training in teaching in the way our staff is trained by Teaching Development Unit. Maybe they would be even willing to help here, as it is their specialty. This would be the theory part of this teaching course. The practical part of the course would be assisting the teachers in running practicals. They would be assigned to one of the courses (Biomolecules, Methods I...) based on where they would be more helpful and also based on their course load. They would help in preparing and running said practicals and thus get good picture of how things work. After this they would write short report on the experience and have final meeting where they would give and receive feedback. All this would require more effort from some of the staff in terms of total hours spent, but it would also add more help for those moments where the staff is at its thinnest. For students it would give valuable teaching experience. In summary, I see great potential in this idea of getting 3rd year students involved with teaching 1st year students' practicals. Good idea, Alex. Cheers, Niko _______________________________________________ Bklist mailing list Bklist(a)lists.oulu.fi http://lists.oulu.fi/mailman/listinfo/bklist

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Another set of comments from a student
by Lloyd Ruddock 15 May '08

15 May '08

I also would like to stress some points about these issues. This message may be forwarded to other people if it is seen helpful, but I myself would like to remain anonymous. Someone already mentioned that the job/salary situation makes some students quite insecure and worried. I can't exactly point out where this comes from, but it's very hard to avoid hearing at least some depressing comments about the unemployement etc. It's actually quite hard to exactly point out where this comes from because there have been these events where people outside the university come to talk about their careers (maybe it's has not been convincing enough?). Also I think at least some older students tend to talk about the matter, so that can be one source too. Many people would like their job to be well paid (or at least adequate) and not to worry about unemployement and part-time jobs. So it seems quite logical in some way that even people, who originally were not that interested about going to the medical field, may change their mind because becoming a doctor is very secure thing to do when thinking about the salary and employement, besides it's one of the few professions where one can use their problem solving ability combining their knowledge of biology, biochemistry and some other natural sciences (so if thought this way, it's not actually that far from biochemistry, the biggest difference being the close contact with the clients). So in my opinion ot would do a lot of good to get the new students more confident about the work employement/salary situation. Though I can't come up with any new ideas which haven't been tried already. I also like the idea about going to school to talka about biochemistry because it is very likely many of the "lukio" students haven't ever heard about the subject before. Lloyd's additional comments - the last time there was a survey biochemistry students were amongst the highest employment rate in the faculty. Another international survey had our area of science being the 2nd faster growth rate world wide for jobs (after information communications technology). Our students are VERY highly wanted on the medical faculty to do research. There are issues job wise, but that holds true in many fields. One reason we decided to take on international students rather than increase the output of Finnish students is because they are likely to move away from Finland after they complete and so are unlikely to compete for the same jobs. There is a lot to be positive about, but it is not as secure nor as well paid as becoming a doctor.

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RE: [Bklist] feedback and one dark idea
by Lloyd Ruddock 15 May '08

15 May '08

I don't get paid extra for marking MSc thesis, but I suspect if we tried this it would cause a riot AND I think that other people SHOULD get extra remuneration for marking thesis because they take so long to mark properly. However, I have thought about prizes etc as a way of motivating students (lots of other university systems have them), but it does not seem the "Finnish way" and how motivating is it really for most students? (student opinions welcome please). We do have the "placement funds" (I can't remember the proper name for it at the moment) for 3rd and higher year students which allow students to get summer placements for biochemistry work where they like (assigned by random draw but you have to have completed certain courses to get into the draw) which should help to motivate students (but do 1st and 2nd year students know they will have this chance?) -----Original Message----- From: bklist-bounces(a)lists.oulu.fi [mailto:bklist-bounces@lists.oulu.fi] On Behalf Of Ulrich Bergmann Sent: 15. toukokuuta 2008 12:13 To: bklist(a)lists.oulu.fi Subject: [Bklist] feedback and one dark idea I'm trying to make a probably unpopular suggestion that I have incubated for long time, but the nice discussion about our teaching has motivted me to bring it forward. So I mean, hopefully I won't get stoned or secretely pushed down the stairs, we have to read and mark thesis books as part of our work and although it's part of the normal work (in my understanding), we get extra money for it. How if we would use this money (it goes anyway to taxes in a far to high proportion) for some purpose meant to motivate students in their learning etc.; we could implement a prize (or two) or a stipend or pay some salary for special student- work project. Uli _______________________________________________ Bklist mailing list Bklist(a)lists.oulu.fi http://lists.oulu.fi/mailman/listinfo/bklist

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Kutsu Työnantajamaine2008 -tutkimukseen
by Sari Vähäkangas 15 May '08

15 May '08

Kutsu Työnantajamaine2008 -tutkimukseen (DL 18.5) Tervetuloa vastaamaan Työnantajamaine2008 -tutkimukseen. Mielipiteesi on meille tärkeä, olitpa sitten ensimmäisen vuoden opiskelija tai jo oman alasi työkokemusta omaava tekijä. Vastausaikaa on 18.5 saakka. Vastaaminen kannattaa, sillä jokainen vastaaja saa halutessaan omien vastaustensa perusteella tehdyn työnhakijaprofiilin, jossa on verrattu vastaajan omia mielipiteitä muiden opiskelijoiden mielipiteisiin työelämästä ja työnantajista. Kaikkien vastanneiden kesken arvomme uuden Apple MacBook Air kannettavan tietokoneen ja 10 Apple iPod Shuffle -soitinta. Voit ilmoittautua arvontaan ja tilata työnhakijaprofiilin lomakkeen lopussa. Kyselyyn voit vastata myös nimettömästi. Kysely löytyy osoitteesta http://www.t-media.fi/tyonantajamaine2008 Jos linkki ei aukea klikkaamalla, kopioi se selaimen osoiteriville hiiren avulla. Kyseisessä osoitteessa on myös tarkempi kuvaus tutkimuksesta. Mukavia vastaushetkiä! Tutkimukseen liittyviin kysymyksiin vastaa: Päivi Salminen-Kultanen, T-media Oy Sähköposti: paivi.salminen-kultanen (at) t-media.fi ********************************************************************************************************************************************* Tiedon välitti, Sari Vähäkangas suunnittelija Oulun yliopisto Ohjaus- ja työelämäpalvelut PL 8100 90014 OULUN YLIOPISTO tel. +358 8 553 3590 fax +358 8 553 3597 www.oulu.fi/careerservices

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More feedback from a student
by Lloyd Ruddock 15 May '08

15 May '08

1) >?Would it be possible to get third year students to participate as > teachers in the first year practicals?? > ?Excellent suggestion (no payments though, only credits), but to work > it needs most of the third year to be willing to teach the first > years. Are they?? Although I can´t speak on behalf of every present second year students, many of us became already excited about the opportunity to teach the first year students the basic things of biochemistry practicals. Naturally, this requires time for -the teaching without any simultaneous lectures of our own, but otherwise at least I am in on that. 2) Some of the second year students seem to be also interested in going to schools to tell about biochemistry, if that is needed. I recall that eg. physics department did pay their students the money they had to spend on traveling to their own high school if they went to talk about physics in Oulu. I don´t know if that would work in our department and I think students might be willing to go without any fee (eg. to high schools in Oulu). The opportunity to go to schools could be encouraged in future, also before/after/while doing one´s BSc thesis (also "while", since if you do a poster you would have both something to show and to say). It would also be nice to know how interested the schools themselves are in getting someone to talk. Susanna Teppo I like both suggestions, but there are some implementation issues. Tuomo if you would like to make some general comments and then if we could discuss at the meeting next week. Also more student views on this and other issues would be useful. Finally, if people are wondering why I am sending these feedbacks from students to the bklists it is because the students can't as they are not on the bklist mailing group - Lloyd

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Forwarded from 1st year student
by Lloyd Ruddock 15 May '08

15 May '08

Hello, Seems there is interesting depate going on about feedback day issues. First I wish to thank for the very quick response on missing information about new master`s degree. Now even that it`s not complete yet, it gives us good insight what to expect in the future, thank you. When it comes to this language issue, yes it is true some first year students might feel it difficult. Still I think it is good to bring it in as early as possible, becouse we can`t hide english language forever. What we should do is to encourage students to use the language. We finns easily think, that we are not "allowed" to use the language before it`s fluent and almost perfect. I guess this way of thinking is just in our culture. Thats why many people feel it awkward or even embarrassing to actually use the language they do not fully master. Only way to get over it is to just use the english, even if its not that fluent. Next semester this might become easier, as new international master`s students come. I hope there will be interaction between nationalities, not separate two groups; we and those others. Medical school, yep people want there, some actually manage to go there. There are numerous of reasons why we lose students to medics, here is some: 1. Unfortunately biochemistry is a number 2. plan for those who try to get into medical school, and yes indeed we give good preparation for entering exam. ( actually biophysics gives even better preparation, they are dealing same problem?? ) 2. People are afraid of their future, what happens after graduation. Do we get any job? If yes, do we get any salary? As for graduated from medical shool, nowdays you get a job, you get very good income. And if you want, you get to do partially same kind of work as graduated from here. 3. High school graduates do not know that biochemistry exist, those who apply to medical school get to know it along the way as they read on entering exam. What could be done to prevent the loss. Setting our own entering exam on same day as medics is definitely bad idea, as we lose lot of good applicants right away. At this stage we can get advantage of our highly international department. We should advertise ourself; tell those high schoolers, that we can provide world class education on international level in biochemistry. Also make it clear at the very beginning, that some courses will be in english. This could be told already on high school visit, as the fact that this is not an easy way to go. This way we get students that are searching for challenges, and come for biochemistry, not for the plan 2. Yep these are just thoughts of a first year student, and regrets for those language mistakes..;) ~ Kalle

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FW: [Bklist] even more feedback
by Lloyd Ruddock 15 May '08

15 May '08

Apart from timetabling issues I see no problems with this and I can see some benefits. Perhaps Jari could comment on the timetable possibilities. -----Original Message----- From: bklist-bounces(a)lists.oulu.fi [mailto:bklist-bounces@lists.oulu.fi] On Behalf Of Antti Salo Sent: 14. toukokuuta 2008 15:55 To: bklist(a)lists.oulu.fi Subject: [Bklist] even more feedback one more thing to discuss... should/could microbiology be teached before cell biology? i feel microbiology labs should be before cell biology labs. i have no idea about lectures... Antti _______________________________________________ Bklist mailing list Bklist(a)lists.oulu.fi http://lists.oulu.fi/mailman/listinfo/bklist

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